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Poster: | snow_and_rain | Date: | Mar 4, 2014 1:25pm |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
See here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32927-2004Jun10.html
Excerpts below:
But if he had warm, appreciative words for Reagan, Gorbachev brusquely dismissed the suggestion that Reagan had intimidated either him or the Soviet Union, or forced them to make concessions. Was it accurate to say that Reagan won the Cold War? "That's not serious," Gorbachev said, using the same words several times. "I think we all lost the Cold War, particularly the Soviet Union. We each lost $10 trillion," he said, referring to the money Russians and Americans spent on an arms race that lasted more than four decades. "We only won when the Cold War ended."
By Gorbachev's account, it was his early successes on the world stage that convinced the Americans that they had to deal with him and to match his fervor for arms control and other agreements that could reduce East-West tensions. "We had an intelligence report from Washington in 1987," he said, "reporting on a meeting of the National Security Council." Senior U.S. officials had concluded that Gorbachev's "growing credibility and prestige did not serve the interests of the United States" and had to be countered. A desire in Washington not to let him make too good an impression on the world did more to promote subsequent Soviet-American agreements than any American intimidation, he said. "They wanted to look good in terms of making peace and achieving arms control," he said of the Reagan administration.
...
Did Reagan's success in his first term, and the huge build-up of military power that he persuaded Congress to finance, affect the decision of the Soviet Politburo to choose a young and vigorous new leader in 1985 -- someone who could, in effect, stand up to Reagan? "No, I think there was really no connection," he replied, chuckling. He said he was chosen for purely internal reasons that had nothing to do with the United States.
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Poster: | kochman | Date: | Mar 5, 2014 6:07am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
This post was modified by kochman on 2014-03-05 14:07:49
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Poster: | snow_and_rain | Date: | Mar 5, 2014 8:04am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
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Poster: | kochman | Date: | Mar 5, 2014 12:53pm |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
Which is pretty clear.
You interpreted that as...
Gorbachev said "(reagan) entered into history."
And I'm the one using "tiny, out-of-context snippets"?
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Poster: | snow_and_rain | Date: | Mar 5, 2014 1:29pm |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
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Poster: | kochman | Date: | Mar 5, 2014 3:16pm |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
All they do is prove that Reagan wasn't the only factor in every level of the end of the CW, which no one that I know has ever claimed.
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Poster: | snow_and_rain | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 7:23am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
I don't find that quote to be clear at all, Rob. To me, his saying that Reagan "entered into history" that way makes no real comment on his own personal feelings about the matter (to the extent that Gorbachev or any one person should have the last word on such a complicated topic).
I simply wanted to provide more information about his true feelings. I think it's clear that Gorby was pretty sour on the idea that Reagan (and not he) was the primary force behind the end of the Cold War. In his telling, the primary forces were internal. Reagan's importance was in recognizing that Gorbachev was a serious force for change and openness. He may be remembered for "tear down this wall," but his actual approach to Gorbachev was far more nurturing. But to his credit, he didn't fuck things up. So he's got that going for him.
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Poster: | kochman | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 8:14am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
I am not defending the view that Reagan was the "primary" force behind the end of the Cold War... I think I've made that clear.
He was, as Gorby said, instrumental.
I think the disconnect here is that you are trying to argue a point that I am not making... and the snarky "spell it out" can be omitted in the future, hopefully.
I think his teamwork with Gorby, as you point out, was a major factor in it all too, not the rhetoric.
As we all know, the economic system of the CCCP was doomed to fail at some point... they bought a new lease on life after WW2 when they raped and pillaged the Bloc. The lease, however, remained temporary.
I would argue that Carter, Ford, Nixon, Bush Sr, etc did little to affect the fall of the CCCP. Reagan was instrumental.
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Poster: | snow_and_rain | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 9:18am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
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Poster: | William Tell | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 11:09am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
When they got back (both loved it, of course), my dad, as the old conservative said, very first thing: "I cannot believe we EVER felt threatened by THAT..." (went on to explain the abject poverty implied to him that they were NO Super Power; alt Ho is that's WHY there's so much poverty, but you get the idea) and the completely liberal brother sez "I cannot believe they duped ANY wanna-be socialists ever" (ie, that it really was an amazingly repressive police state, but one more like a house of cards, and not the Marx-ist experiment anyone of the 30s hoped for...duh, of course).
Obviously, not informed, historical research, but they really saw the same thing, and were impressed in the same way, as diff as ea was politically, social outlook, etc, etc.
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Poster: | snow_and_rain | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 11:19am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
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Poster: | William Tell | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 1:34pm |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
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Poster: | kochman | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 12:09pm |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
It didn't want to make assumptions, as you have done.
The assumption you were making led to you failing to comprehend my point.
So, if you want to debate in a civil manner, I'm good with it.
If you want to be snarky, I will not be replying any further.
I know we have a sorted past, but I've made my efforts to move on, and I ask that you do the same.
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Poster: | bluedevil | Date: | Mar 5, 2014 1:43pm |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
This post was modified by bluedevil on 2014-03-05 21:43:38
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Poster: | William Tell | Date: | Mar 5, 2014 1:48pm |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
Taking the tail end because it fits the hypothesis is simply missing all the other factors that had come to bear prior (ha! great pun there, eh? "bear"...cool).
Anyhoo, I understand why the myth "works", but it's not just me; there are lots of historians that don't see it as simple as Reagan won the Cold War. But, we agree to disagree; it's no bias, BTW, against Reagan, cause he did more than enough to prove his idiocy on his own (like most of them, eh?), but this is separate from that overall personality failure.
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Poster: | kochman | Date: | Mar 5, 2014 3:30pm |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
This post was modified by kochman on 2014-03-05 23:30:21
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Poster: | William Tell | Date: | Mar 5, 2014 4:09pm |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
And again, I know all the figs for our votes/aid/etc, but the fact remains, on the ground, the vehicles/planes/artillery/etc. that "won" the battle were not the stuff we sent them, they just didn't get there prior to summer of 42 (russkies).
Where we really made a difference--our stuff that is--is that they never could have made the "drive" to Berlin because we DID give them the boots (literally) and transport to do that...it would have taken another yr or two, minimum.
So again, a matter of degree; I say, "Nazis had lost momentum, and were headed downhill prior to US support materials arriving in huge amounts" while you see the all important aspect of "without our aid, the russkies would've had a much harder time of it, etc., etc."...I know YOU understand the complexity, but other folks that overstate it (WE won the war, russkies were secondary) are offbase.
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Poster: | kochman | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 5:35am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
This post was modified by kochman on 2014-03-06 13:35:12
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Poster: | William Tell | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 6:19am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
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Poster: | kochman | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 8:20am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
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Poster: | SomeDarkHollow | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 7:21am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | I'd kill to see just a little trouble around here |
Good God, what's happened to us? It's a sad state of affairs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz2PhYFK8Bw
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Poster: | William Tell | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 11:06am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: I'd kill to see just a little trouble around here |
Putin? We don't need no stinking Putin for the obliteration of the Free World! We do it here, one tired brain cell at a time...
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Poster: | SomeDarkHollow | Date: | Mar 6, 2014 11:16am |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: I'd kill to see just a little trouble around here |
With puns like that its no wonder our resident self-absorbed and self-appointed intellectual Scotsman is such a rare sight in these parts.
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Poster: | William Tell | Date: | Mar 4, 2014 2:03pm |
Forum: | GratefulDead | Subject: | Re: We don't need no more trouble |
:)
[we could practically write for ea other...hmm, you might wanna be scared about that, eh?]